Would you buy WoW items/gold with real money?

[Delores Mulva]

The players were right that it sucked that they needed to travel long distances to have access to content. They were wrong in the solution they asked for, and the devs, who get paid to think about this crap, were inexcusably wrong in their solution, and it got worse and worse when they compounded the problems over and over again, even after the effects were abundantly clear. By the time they added a THIRD means of teleportation for everyone in LDoN, it was no secret that they had all but destroyed the old world.

The existing geometry of the old world, the lack of artificial means of restricting association between players, and the strong emphasis on grouping meant that a fix like what you wanted couldn't happen. How do you rework, as an example, Nek Forest, Lavastorm, Najena, Sol A, and Sol B such that the level progression and travel works both for dark elves and for anyone else (like a wood elf) that wants to adventure with their friends who play dark elves? Will it still work if new character numbers drop, and the dark elf that cannot solo has to travel to another race's mid-level areas to group? Sacrificing some of the power of two classes to make the game workable for the other dozen or so was a smart move.

And unlike WoW, which forces you to give things up for this (lots of money for lots of bank slots, or convenience when using mules), this was just a free handout. For a game that, by this point, was at a crisis with too much plat in the economy, this was a huge missed opportunity. Extra safe deposit boxes in real life cost more money, Blizzard putting them in WoW was hardly a giant flash of inspiration. So why couldn't EQ1 have come up with a solution that met player demands while actually?

The "too much plat" was not evenly distributed, not even remotely. Charging people an appropriate amount of in-game currency for standard game features would have encouraged a level of farming never before seen in EQ, with the resulting disruption and dissatisfaction. The swap slots and expanded bank were done well.

You gonna hold onto gold that isn't helping you at level 60 when you can sell it for a new Vid card or PS3? All that money goes right back into circulation. Look at Koster's comments about SW:G's economy. They bank on the fact that the few super-duper-rich players just sit on their money. Make it easy and 'legal' for them to sell it, and that balance is out the window.

You don't see a fundamental problem with a game system where it's expected, as a part of normal play, that players will end up with large quantities of transferrable wealth that are useless to themselves? Expecting players to sit on that, rather than finding ways for them to use it productively as part of game play, is a fool's bet.

There is something wrong with it. It accelerates mudflation and interferes with the play experience of those who want to play the game as intended instead buying their way through. When it's just one person doing it, you're right, very little impact. When there are lots of people doing it, very big impact.

You play WoW, the MMORPG with the most trivial time investment to get to the endgame, and you're worried about mudflation? Mudflation is only an issue in games where there's a significant time investment to progress through levels of the game.

Yeah. MUDflation. That's the point. The game content becomes trivialized and new content has to factor in for mudflated bank accounts. That's why we have BoE and BoP gear and minimum level requirements in the first place. Because MUDflation is bad, and you generally don't want to have it.

Mudflation is bad if it allows players to skip significant time investments. For the game you play, WoW, what significant time investments would be skipped by selling of gold for cash? Are those time investments part of the fun of the game, or tedious chores that most players would skip if able? To give examples of what I'm trying to get at: selling gold for epic mounts isn't a bad thing if getting the gold for epic mounts generally involves grinding on cash mobs, since grinding on some random mob type isn't what WoW is about. Selling gold for epic mounts would be bad, though, if players normally accumulated gold for mounts by doing instances as they go up in level, since the instances are what WoW is about.

[Ringo]

The existing geometry of the old world, the lack of artificial means of restricting association between players, and the strong emphasis on grouping meant that a fix like what you wanted couldn't happen. How do you rework, as an example, Nek Forest, Lavastorm, Najena, Sol A, and Sol B such that the level progression and travel works both for dark elves and for anyone else (like a wood elf) that wants to adventure with their friends who play dark elves? Will it still work if new character numbers drop, and the dark elf that cannot solo has to travel to another race's mid-level areas to group? Sacrificing some of the power of two classes to make the game workable for the other dozen or so was a smart move.

Oh, piffle, it's not that bad at all, especially since wizard ports (for those friends of dark elves) take you right into the dark elf newbie zone.

Just off the top of my head:

Nek Forest - Level 1-5
East Freeport - Level 1-5
West Freeport - Level 1-5
East Commonlands - Level 6-10
Lavastorm - Level 11-15, pockets of higher level content near Solusek's Eye
Najena - Level 16-20
Solusek A - Level 20-25
Solusek B - Level 26-30
Solusek C - Level 30-35
Temple of Solusek Ro - Quests from level 16-40
West Commonlands - Level 11-15
Northern Desert of Ro - Level 6-10
Oasis of Marr - Level 11-15
Southern Ro - Level 6-10
Innothule Swamp - Level 1-5
Ferrott - Level 1-5
Kithicor Forest - Level 16-20 (Day)
Kithicor Forest - Level 36-40 (Night)
Misty Thicket - Level 1-5 (near Rivervale)
Misty Thicket - Level 6-10 (beyond the wall)
Runnyeye - Level 11-15 (top level)
Runnyeye - Level 21-25 (middle level)
Runnyeye - Level 26-30 (bottom level)
Gorge of King Xorbb - Level 16-20
Upper Guk - Level 16-25
Temple of Cazic Thule - Level 26-35
Lower Guk - Level 36-45

And just to fill in more of Antonica, since I've gone this far.

Highpass - Level 21-25
Paw - Level 31-35
South Karana - Level 26-30
East Karana - Level 21- 25
North Karana - Level 16-20
West Karana - Level 11-20
Qeynos Hills - Level 6-10
North Qeynos - Level 1-5
Qeynos Sewers - Level 11-15
Blackburrow - Level 11-15
Everfrost - Level 1-10
Permafrost - Level 36-40
That other druid zone I can't remember the name of - Level 41-45

(Obviously, this is just a quick and dirty edition of this. It'd probably be possible to make most of this adhere a little more closely to current levels and make the transition smoother with a little work.)

So, your troll and ogre buddies want to come to Neriak, the hub of evil civilization, along with your human buddies serving the Dismal Rage. They need to get to level 5, pick their way carefully through a level 6-10 zone. At this point, humans are back in a newbie zone they're safe in. Ogres and trolls need to run through a level 11-15 zone, and then they're back in a lower level zone, followed by a newbie zone. Not insurmountable obstacles at all, as any night elf who's run through the Wetlands at level 5 can tell you.

Of course, just because you're revamping zones doesn't mean you don't add things as well. Tunnels from Ak'Anon to Kaladim, and a dark elf secret underground highway that has an opening near the Innothule zoneline in the Southern Desert of Ro that lets you out in the NRo/EC tunnel. It's guarded at both ends by actual impressive dark elf guards (think city guards) or it may even be a magic portal that only opens for worshippers of Innothule, Cazic-Thule or Bertox.

It's not that hard. It just requires will, and a willingness to meaningfully revamp enough unused zones that there's a cumulative effect, instead of just waving a magic wand over one zone and thinking that a revised Temple of Cazic-Thule will make enough difference on its own.

The "too much plat" was not evenly distributed, not even remotely. Charging people an appropriate amount of in-game currency for standard game features would have encouraged a level of farming never before seen in EQ, with the resulting disruption and dissatisfaction. The swap slots and expanded bank were done well.

I disagree. People in real life trade disposable income for conveniences all the time -- people do it in WoW as well for bank slots, flights and teleport reagents. (And, some would argue, enchantments.)

EQ could have charged to open the mailboxes or charged a baseline rent. UO didn't melt down because people have to pay rent on their houses.

The only real expense to take money out of the hands of the wealthy in EQ1 is the one-time expense of nice horses, and the nicest horses in the game are dropped anyway. Recurring costs in return for luxuries are needed. And WoW will have this same problem sooner rather than later -- hopefully player and guild housing aren't too far off. Hopefully early 2006 at worst.

[Draxyn]

You don't see a fundamental problem with a game system where it's expected, as a part of normal play, that players will end up with large quantities of transferrable wealth that are useless to themselves? Expecting players to sit on that, rather than finding ways for them to use it productively as part of game play, is a fool's bet.

No. I think that's a mark of a precarious design. But in the game as currently designed, it's manageable because there isn't much benefit to passing out that cash. (and it's not worthless, it's just worth less.) Incentivizing people to pass out that cash with USD is going to exacerbate a problem that's already going to happen. I'm not saying the way it is now is good. I'm saying the way it is now is a very careful balancing act and even tacit allowance of ebaying is going to lubricate MUDflation and break the scales.

Mudflation is bad if it allows players to skip significant time investments.

No. MUDflation is always bad. It's not about skipping time investments, it's about the changes to the game that have to be made because of MUDflation, and how that affects the casual player.

Selling gold for epic mounts would be bad, though, if players normally accumulated gold for mounts by doing instances as they go up in level, since the instances are what WoW is about.

Funny. That's how I got all my gold. This whole 'grinding' thing is entirely a construct of people who choose to play that way. Because let me tell you, I've never gone 'grinding' for cash or experience on mobs just to get a level or a horse. People can do that if they want and that's cool. I could care less. While the economic balance is palatable, I'm having fun.

However, out of control MUDflation means that when the mega-epic mounts come out, they're going to be designed to assume MUDflated economics. Or as Ringo points out player and guild housing. They're not going to be based on what you can reasonably earn. They're going to be based on what everyone's previously amassed. And they're going to be so prohibitively expensive, that more casual players are going to be left out. Pretty soon, anything beyond the core game is going to be out of reach of the casual player, and thanks but no thanks, I'd rather not play EQ again. Even if it does have a better combat system, more polish, and more personality.

[JaDisguiseKa]

Being that I barely ever get to play the game anymore, I would consider buying an epic mount or a cool purple here or there if the price was reasonable. Grinding for 1k gold or purples is only fun if you have the time to put in. It's not when you only have an hour to play a couple times a week.

[FilanFyretracker]

depends, how gear centric is WoW? in EQ1 someone with all very nice gear off ebay would be greatly more effective then some player who is busting tail and upgrading as they can afford it or quest it. now ive allways been one from the old school and figured unless you aquired the gear via in game means(raid, crafting, purchase with money earned, gift) then its not really honest.

[Eamin]

Equipment is neither very important nor very hard to get in WoW.

[Viixxiin]

Equipment is neither very important nor very hard to get in WoW.

The discussion was more of a philisophocal one. Should players be allowed (or is it wrong) to buy digital items with hard cash.

At this point in WoW i dont think its much of an issue because most the stuff that you might actually want to buy is not tradeable anyway. Depending on how things change in the future it may become an issue. But at the moment i dont hink it is.