Five Greatest Americans of all time?

[Lysandor]

There can be no "Great American top 5" list without a nod to Jimmy Osterburg, aka Iggy Pop. For shame!

[DmitrytheWizzy]

Completely wrong. Most of, if not all, the American saints have no miracles attributed to them in their own lifetimes.

A saint is someone whose life garnered them a place in heaven. The Catholic Church has long acknowledged that many saints will go forever unrecognized -- when the Pope beatifies someone, it's simply him saying, "We're sure this person is a saint." In fact, the first saint ever was the fella who was crucified next to Jesus, since JC told him that he would be with him in paradise.



It qualifies them as great human beings. The ones I cited happened to be American.

Did I say in their lifetime? It is completely wrong to say they don't channel god's miracles. Every saint must have miracles attributed to them.

Current practice

The 1983 reform of the Roman Catholic Church's Code of Canon Law has streamlined the procedure considerably compared to the process carried out previously. (See below.)

The process begins at the diocesan level, with the bishop giving permission to open an investigation of the virtues of the person who is suspected of having been a saint. This investigation may not open until permission is given by the Vatican, and not sooner than five years after the death of the person being investigated. However, the pope has the authority to waive this waiting period, as was done for Mother Teresa. When sufficient information has been gathered, the subject of the investigation is called "Servant of God", and the process is transferred to the Roman Curia—the Congregation for the Causes of the Saints—where it is assigned a postulator, whose task is to gather all information about the life of the Servant of God. When enough information has been gathered, the congregation will recommend to the pope that he make a proclamation of the Servant of God's heroic virtue, which entitles him or her to receive the title "Venerable". A Venerable has as of yet no feast day, but prayer cards may be printed to encourage the faithful to pray for a miracle wrought by his or her intercession.

The next step depends on whether the Venerable is a martyr. For a martyr, the pope has only to make a declaration of martyrdom, which then allows beatification, yielding the title "Blessed" and a feast day in the Blessed's home diocese and perhaps some other local calenders. If the Venerable was not a martyr, it must be proven that a miracle has taken place by his or her intercession. Today, these miracles are almost always miraculous cures, as these are the easiest to objectively establish. (The patient was sick, there was no known cure for the ailment, prayers were directed to the Venerable, the patient was cured, and doctors cannot explain it.)

To pass from Blessed to Saint, one (more) miracle is necessary. The declaration of sainthood is considered to be infallible, while declarations of venerability and beatitude are not. A saint's feast day is considered universal, and may be celebrated anywhere within the Catholic church, although it may not appear on the general calendar.

In the case of persons that common usage has called saints from "time immemorial" (in practice, since before 1500 or so), the Church may carry out a "confirmation of cultus", which is much simpler. For example, Saint Hermann Joseph had his veneration confirmed by Pope John Paul II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonization

I do kinda like how you get to waive a miracle if you were killed for the cause.

[DmitrytheWizzy]

It's pathetic that all you PC buggers seeking some woman to round out your list can only come up with Susan B. Anthony.

[Uthaeu]

Washington was a traitor to Great Britain, and he certainly deserves no place on a list of Greatest Britons.

I disagree Ppatty. Washington was out for himself, which is exactly what Great Britain preaches throughout history. The fact that he was our first President in the US is just circumstantial.

[DmitrytheWizzy]

In fact, the first saint ever was the fella who was crucified next to Jesus, since JC told him that he would be with him in paradise.

Well, to be a bit technical, Saints didn't really exist as a category until about 800-900 as I recall.

edit: Found it... in the 900s and the first one was that most famous of Saints... NUMERO UNO!!!

Saint Ulrich of Augsburg, who was canonized in 993

[therrinn]

It's pathetic that all you PC buggers seeking some woman to round out your list can only come up with Susan B. Anthony.

Either that or we've taken a basic sociology class and can understand and admire the absolute beauty of the woman's rights movement from a sociological point of view.

[Murel]

My understanding on saints, for what it is worth:

Saints recognized by the RCC are a subset of all saints. Miracles attributed to their intercession are simply signs that guarantee their sainthood.

It is like, "If a man is wearing an Armani suit, that means he is rich. But not all rich men wear Armani suits.".

"If a virtuous dead Christian has miracles attributed to their intercession, then they are a saint. But not all saints have miracles attributed to their intercession."

[DmitrytheWizzy]

Either that or we've taken a basic sociology class and can understand and admire the absolute beauty of the woman's rights movement from a sociological point of view.

And now I cannot get my wife to make me dinner. Worst decision ever.

[DmitrytheWizzy]

My understanding on saints, for what it is worth:

Saints recognized by the RCC are a subset of all saints. Miracles attributed to their intercession are simply signs that guarantee their sainthood.

It is like, "If a man is wearing an Armani suit, that means he is rich. But not all rich men wear Armani suits.".

"If a virtuous dead Christian has miracles attributed to their intercession, then they are a saint. But not all saints have miracles attributed to their intercession."

I am pretty sure the Catholic church only recognizes the saints on the list. It may be that they have some philosphical position that there may be others but I highly doubt it.

[DmitrytheWizzy]

2) Jesse Owens and/or Jackie Robinson (Smashing the color barrier)

Good choice if you are thinking "sports" as a subcategory. If you are thinking of the great "American Racial Divide" as a category, I think probably Lincoln, King, Malcolm X, Debois are a better tribute.

Frankly, Robinson is one of my personal heros but I cannot put him in the category of the man who had a dream. I just get these heebee geebees that by making the symbol of civil rights on the list a sports figure, you marginalize the symbol.

[PPatty]

Did I say in their lifetime? It is completely wrong to say they don't channel god's miracles. Every saint must have miracles attributed to them.

Again, completely wrong.

You are talking about the current formal process of canonization by the Pope. However, papal canonization is not the only way to become a saint. Most of the early saints were never canonized, but became saints by acclamation. There are no miracles attributed to Irenaeus, Augustine, Athanasius, etc.

Even in modern times, acclamation is occasionally raised as an idea. Almost immediately after John XXIII died in 1963, the Vatican II Council considered naming him a saint on the spot. And I guarantee you that when John Paul II dies, someone in the church hierarchy will propose acclamation for him, although it probably won't fly.

[Murel]

Eh, I'll defer to PPatty since I probably don't know what I'm talking about.

[PPatty]

As an addendum, note these excerpts from a July 29, 1997 article from the Vatican Information Service. The article spends most of its time talking about formal canonization. However, it acknowledges that that is not the only way to become a saint:

All Christians aspire to become saints, that is, persons in heaven (officially canonized or not), who lived lives of great charity and heroic virtues.

Excluding beatifications and canonizations celebrated by Pope John Paul, these volumes show that 3,464 causes are pending, 1,385 cults have been confirmed and 565 blesseds and 285 saints have been proclaimed.

I would submit that someone who lives a life of "heroic virtue" is a great person, and thus, American saints ought to be recognized as great Americans, and for Catholics, the greatest Americans.

[DmitrytheWizzy]

Again, completely wrong.

You are talking about the current formal process of canonization by the Pope. However, papal canonization is not the only way to become a saint. Most of the early saints were never canonized, but became saints by acclamation. There are no miracles attributed to Irenaeus, Augustine, Athanasius, etc.

Even in modern times, acclamation is occasionally raised as an idea. Almost immediately after John XXIII died in 1963, the Vatican II Council considered naming him a saint on the spot. And I guarantee you that when John Paul II dies, someone in the church hierarchy will propose acclamation for him, although it probably won't fly.

Don't let the history hit your ass on the way out of the argument:

Towards the close of the eleventh century the popes found it necessary to restrict episcopal authority on this point and decreed that the virtues and miracles of persons proposed for public veneration should be examined in councils. Even after these decrees, "some, following the ways of the pagans and deceived by the fraud of the evil one, venerated as a saint a man who had been killed while intoxicated". Pope Alexander III (1159 - 1181) prohibited popular veneration in these words: "For the future you will not presume to pay him reverence, as, even though miracles were worked through him, it would not allow you to revere him as a saint unless with the authority of the Roman Church." Thus, the pope for the first time reserved the right of beatification. Some bishops did not obey it in as far as it regarded beatification (which right they had certainly possessed before this), so Urban VII published, in 1634, a Bull which put an end to all discussion by reserving to the Holy See exclusively not only its immemorial right of canonization, but also that of beatification.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canonization

[Uthaeu]

As an addendum, note these excerpts from a July 29, 1997 article from the Vatican Information Service. The article spends most of its time talking about formal canonization. However, it acknowledges that that is not the only way to become a saint:



I would submit that someone who lives a life of "heroic virtue" is a great person, and thus, American saints ought to be recognized as great Americans, and for Catholics, the greatest Americans.

The best Americans are those who can distinguish between church and state. It's the foundation of American history.

[PPatty]

The best Americans are those who can distinguish between church and state.

Those saints did distinguish between church and state. None of them ran for any political office or tried to exert any broad influence on politics. They just lived great lives.

[Zedd]

Never heard of any of these people by the way, but then again I'm a heathen, what do I know?

ZZ

[PPatty]

Don't let the history hit your ass on the way out of the argument

Get back to me when you dig up the Catholic document that eliminates every pre-12th century person from the list of saints.

so Urban VII published, in 1634, a Bull which put an end to all discussion by reserving to the Holy See exclusively not only its immemorial right of canonization, but also that of beatification.

"The Holy See" also refers to official councils, like Vatican II. Further, that papal bull does not explicitly define the rules of canonization itself -- a future Pope can, if he so chooses, canonize saints without requiring miraculous proof.

[Uthaeu]

Those saints did distinguish between church and state. None of them ran for any political office or tried to exert any broad influence on politics. They just lived great lives.

I disagree bud. Do we need to argue semantics?

[PPatty]

I disagree bud. Do we need to argue semantics?

Why not? What else do we do on Graffe's?

Anyway, do you really disagree that those American saints didn't distinguish between church and state?