Are necros supposed to do more damage with dots?

[ellocopato]

http://eqforums.station.sony.com/eq/...message.id=774

Then came the slap in the face. Our top of the line dot, Ancient Curse of Mori, for Omens of War does 800 dmg a tick for 4 ticks, and of course lets add the bonus tick, which comes out to 4000 dmg at the cost of 1040 mana. So whats the problem? Well, I casually browse the wizard nuke, Ancient Core Fire, and noticed that this spell did 4274 dmg, at a cost of 998 mana!!!!
So, again, are developers actually making dots utterly useless? The top wizard spell, not only does more damage than the top necro dot, it also costs less mana, AND does all this dmg INSTANTLY. There is something seriously wrong with this trend.

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Now I haven't kept up with the necro line of dots, but has it been in the past that their dots would inflict more damage over time then our best nukes?

[Fydar]

It seems a little odd....traditionally Necro's are more efficent at the cost of burst dps, and have better long term dps when compared to a wizard. In this case though it appears that wizards have the advantage of efficency.

[Koss]

I forgot how many second a tick is, but you can cast multiple Ancient Core Fire or other spells during the 4-tick period, even more if you have spell haste item/AAs. Wizards use more mana to do this, but the high level DD definlatey do more damage than DoT unless it has horriendous casting time.

[AThousandYoung]

Well, as one person responded, the spell lasts 5+1 ticks, not 4+1. This destroys the whole complaint. However they keep complaining...

In addition the DOT has a better resist adjustment than ACoF. Of course, Wizards get the Familiar level bonus to help with resists. But, the Curse is Magic resisted, which means Tashan helps it land - is that an advantage? I don't know actually. Druids get FR debuffs right...I don't know the high end game.

The DOT also has a "fizzle adjustment." I don't know if that's good or bad. It also has a lower casting time than the nuke.

[Haizen]

Well, as one person responded, the spell lasts 5+1 ticks, not 4+1. This destroys the whole complaint. However they keep complaining...

In addition the DOT has a better resist adjustment than ACoF. Of course, Wizards get the Familiar level bonus to help with resists. But, the Curse is Magic resisted, which means Tashan helps it land - is that an advantage? I don't know actually. Druids get FR debuffs right...I don't know the high end game.

The DOT also has a "fizzle adjustment." I don't know if that's good or bad. It also has a lower casting time than the nuke.

Also keep in mind this is a fast acting dot. That it has a dmg/mana ratio similar to a wizard nuke and acts so quickly is actually not that bad. Consider that a necro also gets the added damage that their pet can do.

[apokk]

I dunno, putting a dot like that on, plus a couple others and pet damage all combined seems to be much more DPS than I can shell out. Unless I want to die of course.

[Zarbonius]

"Of course, Wizards get the Familiar level bonus to help with resists."
Nope - affects fizzle rates, but not resists.

[Istari]

this dot takes about 30 seconds to run its course. in 30 seconds, you will have been doing a lot of nuking. of course, necros stack dots. the linked thread complaint looks silly. wizards have known for ages that it is dps, not toal damage, that makes a spell. he argues that they are making dots 'utterly worthless' and somehow tries to connect this to wizard spells, which doesn't follow.

necros have a lot more power functions than do wizards on a raid, anyway, and should pay for this by expecting to not out-dps wizards. feeds, feign death, rezz, mass dmf and whatever else I may have missed are significant assets on a raid, and wizards are basically dps only. there's aetl and ss, but the former is reproducable by any class and ss is a very minor effect which is very rarely needed anyway, and during most boss encounters, this doesn't justify its opportunity costs.

lots of necro whining ensues :P

[Suladas Brdspeed]

Necros also have critical affliction aa's now...so they arent totally shafted. I have critical affliction lvl 2 on my bard...and it goes off pretty dam often...when it goes off, you dont see a special crit msg or anything, the dot just does double dmg that tick.

[SimpleMinded]

Why are people getting so excited about beta spells? Omens doesn't come out for what, 2 more months? Give them time and I think they'll get everything all balanced nice and neat.

[Zarkane]

Well, lets look WAY back a bit.

Original EQ:

Best Necro DoT: Ignite Blood
1120 damage
Mana- 250
Efficiency = 4.48

Best Wizard Nuke:
Ice comet
1100-1120 damage
mana- 400
Efficiency = 2.8

Kunark:

Necro:
Pyrocrour
1998 damage
Mana - 400
Efficiency = 4.995

Wizard
Sunstrike
1615 damage
mana - 450
Efficiency - 3.588

Velious

Necro:
No DoT upgrade (that I could find..Im digging through Prima guides here)

Wizard:
Bane spells have an efficiency of 4.44, and Ice spear, while not a damage upgrade, is an efficiency upgrade. generating 1200 damage for 300 mana for overall efficiency of 4.00

Luclin
Necro:
Group lifetap that delt 1080 to mob and heals group for 650 mana- efficiency 1.66 but its a heal...

Wizard:
Garrisons Superior Sundering
2100 damage
540 mana
Efficiency - 3.888

PoP
Necro:
Blood of Thule
2345 damage
500 mana
Efficiency = 4.69

Wizard:
Strike of Solusek
2740 damage
640 mana
Efficiency = 4.28
( Shock of Magic technically has a better ratio if it hits for full but because of the unreliable nature I decided not to include it here)

GoD
Necro:
Night Fire
3015 damage
577 mana
efficiency = 5.22

Wizard:
White Fire
3015 damage
704 mana
Efficiency = 4.28

Ok...Necros traditionally have been more efficient than Wizards with their dots, but that efficiency comes at a price: time. Wizard damage is instant; its NOW. Necro damage somtimes takes up to 2 minutes to do thier damage. Should the mob die before the necros DoT runs to completion the necro suffers a bit of a loss in efficiency.

Necros DID do the same or better damage in original EQ and Kunark. They lost the edge in damage in Velious, but regained it in GoD, where the top wizard nuke and Necro DoT did the same damage (sans focus), though the necro was more efficient.

[Darkpakt Grimsoul]

It seems a little odd....traditionally Necro's are more efficent at the cost of burst dps, and have better long term dps when compared to a wizard. In this case though it appears that wizards have the advantage of efficency.

For necros to complain about this is a little ridiculous.

But it's worked in the past...so why not?

[Kireiina]

Just for information the full critical afflication AA (DoT crits) has been calculated as a 9% chance to crit, per tick, for I believe 30AA? So wizards have a substantial advantage in that regard. The availability in focus items is fairly substantial too.

In theory necro peak DPS is very high, and will climb in OOW. In practice it will probably reduce. That's because on non-boss mobs the fights are so fast that DoT stacking is worthless, it simply takes too long to ramp up. On boss-mobs the fact that you can only have 30 detrimental effects on the mob also puts a cap on stacking. Neither of which seem to show up in SOE's balancing though. Necro utility is largely stagnant or irrelevant.

The necro class is hardly broken, but in terms of relative power the trend is downwards.

[Aauminki]

Affliction mana-preservation items are also more % than nuke focii, if I recall correctly. Add to this, that the necro lich line generates more mana than VoQ and this has to be balanced somehow as well (see Shamans too).

Finally, it is a wizard speciality to do high damage, and do it fast. Necro speciality has thus far been doing high damage over time. If they want to do fast damage, then yes, it should most definitely come at a higher cost proportionally than wizards.

[Numnaydar]

Also keep in mind that this spell is similar to horror: If it's resisted, (It will happen lots if this resist is kept.) you just wasted 1k mana, and you can't recast for 24 seconds.

I know Wizards are suppose to do more dps, but this is just ridiculous. Either raise the damage or lower the mana cost / slash the recast time. Putting Ancient spells aside (Since 90% of the playerbase won't even get the spell anyways.) Compare our lvl 70 Poisen DoT Wizard lvl 70 nuke:

Chaos Venom: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.htm...33&source=Test
Corona Flare: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.htm...62&source=Test


Do ANY of you see a problem with this?

EDIT: Oh, and did I mention that both this and our Ancient DoT are Conjuration? Thats great considering how we're Alteration Specialized.

[Haizen]

Also keep in mind that this spell is similar to horror: If it's resisted, (It will happen lots if this resist is kept.) you just wasted 1k mana, and you can't recast for 24 seconds.

I know Wizards are suppose to do more dps, but this is just ridiculous. Either raise the damage or lower the mana cost / slash the recast time. Putting Ancient spells aside (Since 90% of the playerbase won't even get the spell anyways.) Compare our lvl 70 Poisen DoT Wizard lvl 70 nuke:

Chaos Venom: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.htm...33&source=Test
Corona Flare: http://lucy.allakhazam.com/spell.htm...62&source=Test


Do ANY of you see a problem with this?

EDIT: Oh, and did I mention that both this and our Ancient DoT are Conjuration? Thats great considering how we're Alteration Specialized.

You can't compare necro dots to wizard spells. Necro's get a pet. Necros get a ton of utility that Wizies don't get. You get FD.

BTW, our nukes get resisted too.

[Numnaydar]

Pets are situational when your raiding AoE mobs. Necro pet dps has never been "Uber" or even "Great", as they seemingly miss more than half the time anyways, not to mention 1 single rampage from a Inktu'ta golem is more than enough to kill your pet.

Yes...infact you can compare them. DoTs take time to do their full damage, the fastest acting DoT to date right now is Horror (Which takes a full 30 seconds to do it's magic...considering its not resisted. Then you get to wait 24 seconds before you get to try again! ). Tell me....how much damage can you Wizards unleash within 30 seconds? DoTs can be stacked, but that really depends on the mob you are fighting, since stacking DoT's usually === different resist type DoTs. Sometimes I can unload 4 DoTs, and other times only 1 or 2, depending on mob resists. Keep in mind we do not have Lure type spells.

You get FD

And you have a instant evac. If your regarding this as a free Aggro reducing spell, you have your clicky concussion pants, and the spell if you don't have the pants. Although the evac is more situational, its still a free get out of jail card like FD.

[Haizen]

Pets are situational when your raiding AoE mobs. Necro pet dps has never been "Uber" or even "Great", as they seemingly miss more than half the time anyways, not to mention 1 single rampage from a Inktu'ta golem is more than enough to kill your pet.

Yes...infact you can compare them. DoTs can be stacked, but that really depends on the mob you are fighting, since stacking DoT's usually === different resist type DoTs. Sometimes I can unload 4 DoTs, and other times only 1 or 2, depending on mob resists. Keep in mind we do not have Lure type spells.



And you have a instant evac. If your regarding this as a free Aggro reducing spell, you have your clicky concussion pants, and the spell if you don't have the pants. Although the evac is more situational, its still a free get out of jail card like FD.

I'm not going to get into a pissing contest over which class sucks more. In fact, I regret ever responding to your comment. Needless to say, you can always come up with situations where one class had an edge over another. The fact is necroes are awesome at keeping up a steady stream of sustained dps. If you want to do wizard damage on raids and big mobs, then re-roll. Necro's get a ton of advantages Wizards don't, so don't whine about how in this or that situation we have it better. You can't have it both ways.

Really, if there's one class that shouldn't comoplain its nencroes. All around, one of the most powerful classes in the game. Wizards are highly specialized damage dealers. To complain that we can out do you in some situations is - well - ridiculous.

[Kireiina]

You are correct to an extent Auminki, although this was a thread about damage. Affliction efficiency is slighter better than MP, although the itemisation on it is fairly awful. As for the mana generation difference it's actualy less significant than you might think. One of the guild wizards claimed a 7 pt / tick difference, once you counted in harvests and mod-rods. Of course this is raid buffed and AoE bard songed. Necro's have a more pronounced advantage in groups, which admittedly aren't massively common in either classes life.

I would happily trade in the pet for half its DPS added to my nuke, of course career soloist necro's have a very different view of the world. Pets are an extremely inconvenient way of doing raid DPS, wizards rarely have the issue of an AoE taking out their DPS. They're also a balance nightmare, uber at the low end and increasingly insignificant at the high.

We could do a utility comparison, and I must admit necro's would probably win. It is fun being a necro. However in practice I've found that other than DPS neither of us really want our raid roles. Keeping spell shield up on the MA doesn't look anymore fun that several hours of twitching chanters on rathe or clerics on xeg. In the modern game we're both DPS classes. Something clearly visible when you observe the OOW spell lists, most of the necro utility spells are all largely abandoned spell lines.

Mind you I'm only arguing because I find game analysis interesting. I don't actually care who does the most DPS. In a raid setting both are dwarfed by the cumulative output of the raid.

(Edit v2.0, for Haizen)

I would expect that if OOW mobs are as fragile as GoD mobs, a near certainty I would say, that wizard *sustained* DPS will almost certainly excede that of a necro. Which is of course what aggravates some of the necro's. The only real point I wanted to make is that DoT damage scales as a factor of the duration of the fight, whereas DD damage is more more stable. As such just looking at the damage numbers for a given spell is not meaningful.

[Kireiina]

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